Which do you think is 'real'?|elliott_saunders|elliott@cfz.org.uk|07/29/03 at 13:13:04|admin|xx|0|217.44.22.15|I'm wondering (and a big thanks to [b]metalguru[/b] for the idea) which of these our members think are 'real' beings and which aren't.

Please mark which you think actually exist (as I say, they don't have to be living, breathing animals, they can be zooform phenomenon, or similar 'not quite all there' beings, but they [b]must[/b] be thought of as possibly existing - not being hallucination or urban legend).

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If you'd like to specify specifics, i.e. you think Nessie is real, but the lake monster somewhere else isn't, then please add your comments to the topic.  If you can possibly add why you think that is the case, we would love to hear your theories!|NS| Re: Which do you think is 'real'?|metalguru|neilthemod1@blueyonder.co.uk|07/29/03 at 18:40:00|Guest|xx|0|213.48.1.157|I don't think exotic felids should be put in the poll at all, we are dealing, in most cases anyway with questionable entites, with many being zooform beings, the rest very possible, yet still mysterious creatures, i.e. Giant Squid. 'Big cats', are certainly not alien or out of place any more, despite what the media states. For those who know not what zooform phenomena is or believe it to be utter hogwash, then the list of creatures in the poll are simply either flesh and blood or complete fiction. Many of course are misunderstood, i.e. Goatman, Jersey Devil, whilst others seem to float, mainly due to their elusive nature, between myth and reality, i.e. Bigfoot and sea serpents although people expect these things to just show their face to everyone. As for 'vampires' and 'werebeings', well, I guess it depends on how readers perceive such creatures. Bedroom invaders, hag-like entites, incubi etc, they exist in some dark form, as do skinwalkers, so maybe these should be mentioned under the 'Vampirology' heading in case people start picturing Buffy-type goons!!!|| Re: Which do you think is 'real'?|Classified|dvn306@yahoo.com|07/29/03 at 19:15:57|Guest|xx|0|130.166.253.69|Excuse, sorry I'm new to this place. DO you guys talk about Aliens and stuff like that? If you do, can you point me to any discussion about that kind of stuff plx. :)

THanks.|| Re: Which do you think is 'real'?|elliott_saunders|elliott@cfz.org.uk|07/30/03 at 07:52:51|admin|xx|0|217.44.22.57|I do apologise to those who voted (Paul, Nigel, Dan and everyone else), but since I've changed some of the topics around and added another one, I thought it pertinent to delete the votes and let everyone vote again from scratch rather than invalidate the poll and make it senseless.

[b]Re: ABCs or Big Cats[/b]
Whilst these as you say metal, are not strictly 'non-entity' and in most cases are physically apparent via more than cursory evidence, on some occasions, there have been what I would term 'Phantom BCs' similar to 'Black Dogs'.  Whilst this is in most cases, certainly an exception to the rule they are in some respects, even in the minority, still an important zooform in this respect.

In their more flesh and blood aspect, it is important not to categorise them as pure fiction, but to ask whether people truly believe yet or not.  My other half, despise much evidence to the contrary, still believes they aren't real.  How many others still think that? I mean, she actually has a better than average chance of being able to take in all the details (from my research) and change her opinion, but she doesn't.

Sometimes people just don't want to realise the truth, but they will still believe in something that is mysterious.  I.e. ABCs.  It is mostly likely that the legislation change in the 70s caused the majority of cases, who them went on to breed and create colonies of BCs, that are now, starting to become more and more apparent as they grow in population size.  

It wouldn't surprise me if, at some point in the next year, an ABC is either spotted in a [b]very[/b] urban setting (i.e. a shopping centre), or invades and terrorises families in a more rural area, killing children and animals in its wake.

Regarless of whether they are real or zooform ("animals that aren't"; animals created from enegery or other sources; not strictly real in the sense they are flesh and blood - they are often not - they may leave stool, fur, be apparently physical in form (i.e. strong, may tear up metal fences, or throw rocks as in BHM cases), but then either vanish or dematerialise in seconds, leaving the destruction and the 'evidence' behind), they are still a part  of cryptozoology until mainstream sience says "well ok, we believe you, no really we do...".  So that's why they are included in the poll, not because they aren't real, which undoubtly they are, but because at present; they are still very much a creature studied by far more cryptoz' than zoologists!|| Re: Which do you think is 'real'?|elliott_saunders|elliott@cfz.org.uk|07/30/03 at 08:00:08|admin|xx|0|217.44.22.57|Hi classified

I've created a topic that fits into the CFZs remit (i.e. its study of Fotean animals, rather than strictly 100% of all Fortean events), on aliens as zooform.  If you want to discuss aliens as ETs and EBEs then feel free, since many of the staff at the CFZ, as well as many of the guests enjoy the topic and are active in 'UFO circles' (I don't mean they go around fields at night however...).|| Re: Which do you think is 'real'?|metalguru|neilthemod1@blueyonder.co.uk|07/30/03 at 19:21:21|Guest|xx|0|213.48.2.234|ABC's...mmmm...I certainly do not believe they are a modern thing at all and definitely not a situation spawned from the introduction in 1976 of the DWAA. This is NOT to say that such cats weren't released, but if anyone cares to research enough then they will find just as many cases long before the '1970s (and 1960s, just as Loren Coleman has done with reports that date back to the 1700s. the press are mainly to blame for the ideas that such cats have only been around or more abundant during the '70s. Hardly any media coverage concentrated on many of the sheep killings which took place from Gloucestershire to Surrey in 1900-1905. It doesn't matter what people believe with regards to exotic cats roaming Britain, but in the instance of this board, we all know they do so they shouldn't really be portrayed as mysterious entites. 'Phantom' cats have been sighted, but should be sectioned under that particluar heading, i.e. Phantom Black Dogs and cats. For how long must exotic cats in Britain be labelled 'alien big cats' ?
Im not quite sure what you mean Elliott either when you say that, "...it wouldn't surprise me if an ABC is spotted in a very urban area". These cats are always strolling into town as part of their routes.
We cannot abide by science forever either in order to accept whether things exist. Science has been ignorant for many years to the existence of some species of animals, and it is unfortunate that until such a species is recognised that it has to lean towards the world of cryptozoology, but the facts are, as Richard Freeman once stated, 'exotic cats' are probably the least interesting 'creatures' within the fold, because much of the theory that surrounds them is 'old hat', and quite pedestrian simply because it has been based upon the last thirty years. Exotic cats to some people may be no different than the Chupacabras or Bigfoot, in that it remains elusive and yet leaves tracks etc, but again, the facts are, the exotic cat situation is a very normal one that does not point to a levitating blood-drinker or eight-feet tall man-beast, all it points to is the fact that exotics cats live in Britain and have done for several hundreds of years. This may be mysterious to some, but it's not a mystery at all. The many sightings, even though these felids are elusive, proves just how often these animals are seen across the world, but sure, everyone loves a mystery, but they are only cats!|| Re: Which do you think is 'real'?|elliott_saunders|elliott@cfz.org.uk|08/05/03 at 09:53:16|admin|xx|0|217.44.22.59| ;D

No mate, what I mean by my comment it will be seen in a very urban area is that it might end up on the 'telly.  I'm thinking that it will be strolling down the 'ol street when it will be spotted for what it is, then people will start screaming, it will get a bit mad, start growlin' and maulin' perhaps, then it will be ringed with police or RSPCA officers who'll capture it or it'll escape.  This will mean there is DEFINITELY proof of their existance - until the majority of people see it on the news, its still almost strictly a myth for most people.

On science, I'm firmly in the Fort area, I detest science, I'm a child of it and practice its 'magick', but I don't believe for a second that its right half the time or that it knows everything.  I too believe they are or have been here for many years, but to ensure people believe, I pointed the finger at the 70s change of legislation to ensure a believable scenario - there is little point in saying "well they've been here for thousands of years" when people won't believe it.  At least with the legislation change, those who disbelieve are given a 'helping hand', from which they can decided once and for all for themselves, if it is true or not (which undoubtedly it is).

I agree they aren't particularly exciting, I'd much rather knock over a BHM in a car than a cat, but I think that in some cases they are a better chance - if we can prove something that definitely exists, exists to the populous, then they are more likely to believe in the existance of other, less physical creatures too!

|| Re: Which do you think is 'real'?|MarkM|quester1111@yahoo.co.uk|08/06/03 at 15:24:51|MarkM|xx|0|81.152.38.10|Of course, it all depends on your deffinition of "real".  || Re: Which do you think is 'real'?|metalguru|neilthemod1@blueyonder.co.uk|08/06/03 at 20:45:16|Guest|xx|0|213.48.1.234|'Rea' as in the sense of, flesh and blood rather than zooform. We know exotic felids are real, whether science etc, accepts them or not. We know the Giant Squid is real, as is the Thylacine, but 'creatures' such as Bigfoot (despite the sightings across the world), Mongolian Deathworm, Black Dogs, all drift into the realm of folklore, but there are a few in there that may well be real creatures (but I guess only when they proven), but some that are definitely not flesh and blood, i.e. Mothman.||